Ukraine War Day #722: Tucker Carlson And The Khmelnitsky File – Part III

Dear Readers:

Today concluding my review of this story by reporter Matvei Malgin. Where we left off, we saw that the Zaporozhian Cossack Hetman Bogdan Khmelnitsky had penned several letters to the Russian Tsar, begging for his protection against the “evil” Polish and Lithuanian rulers. Who oppressed the freedom-loving Cossacks in many ways, including attempts to stamp out their Greek Orthodox religion.

The Russian government was cautious, but entered into negotiations nonetheless, and even sent an Ambassador to the Zaporozhian camp, presumably to work out the details of the deal.

Khmelnitsky’s palace in Chigirin

Next we get to a letter* addressed to the Tsar and dated November 12, 1652, from the city of Chigirin. [*Footnote:  Акты, относящиеся к истории южной и западной России, т. III, стр. 483. М.,1940] Chigirin is located in the Cherkasy Oblast of modern Ukraine. Originally belonging to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Chigirin had become the capital of the Zaporozhian Host, and was the residence of the Hetman. At this point Khmelnitsky had dropped any references to the Polish “King”, seems like he had made his firm choice and was completely done with the Poles. He was so over them. He addresses his letter to “the Orthodox Tsar, directly from your faithful servant, Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Hetman of the Zaporozhian Host, written in his own hand….“ And this is what Khmelnitsky proposes to Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich: ”Most humbly, to your Royal Magnificence, we are thankful that your Royal Magnificence, as an Orthodox Tsar, out of the mercy of your heart, will not permit us, your servants and underlings, the entire Zaporozhian Host, to be discarded; and that through your ambassadors you show your benevolence, since it was through them that you gifted us many times with your generous salary [многократно нас милостивым жалованьем своим призирати изволяешь] and hence we are duty bound to respond to any orders from your Royal Magnificence with our ready services, and act against any enemy of your Royal Magnificence. And for that generous salary we humbly bang our foreheads to your Royal Magnificence.”

Reporter Malgin notes that, at this time, the Tsar had not yet fully made up his mind to actually do this. For the time being, risk-averse as are most Russian rulers, he still officially recognized Zaporozhie as the territory of the Rzeczpospolita. Nonetheless, it is clear from the epistle, that the Russian ambassadors were doing more than just talking to the Hetman: They were shoveling money to him!

And then, finally, the Tsar made his decision. The “Zemsky Sobor” (Russian “Land Council” of noblemen) approved, and the Cossacks took their oath to the Tsar.

The “Zemsky Sobor” – the Tsar’s advisory council of landed gentry.

Khmelnitsky, from Pereyaslav, wrote a letter* to the man who was now his sworn monarch: ”To your Gracious Magnificence the Tsar, from your loyal subjects and lowly servants Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Hetman of your Eminence’s Zaporozhian Host.” [*foornote: ЦГАДА, ф. 124. Малороссийские дела, оп. 1, 1654, № 1, л. 35–38 (спи­сок XVII в., Опубл.: Акты, относящиеся к истории южной и западной России, Т. 10. –№ 4/11, стр. 261–262].

The deed was done: The Zaporozhian Host had switched its sworn loyalty from the Polish King to the Russian Tsar!

So, the reporter asks rhetorically, where, in all of this, do we see any trace of a “Ukrainian Cossack state” which the Ukrainian Nationalists swear by and regard as their ancestor-state. What we have here the Zaporozhian Host, initially working for the Polish King, and then switching its service to the Russian Tsar, “along with all its cities and lands”, as the Hetman promised. Nowhere in all of this do we see or hear the word “Ukraine”. Instead, the term that is used is the word “Malorossiya” – “Little Russia”.

[yalensis: I have explained in previous posts that this term should perhaps translated as “Micro-Russia” instead, by analogy with other geographical terms such as “Micronesia” or “Micro-Graecia”. The semantics being, not a diminutive “little” as in, small or of no importance, but rather the opposite, the meaning being the “core” territory of the ethnos, from which expansion proceeded into the “Greater” territories. In this sense, the term jives with the Ukrainian claim that Kievan Rus was the initial core of the Russian state, then Russians expanded outwards into “Greater Russia”. Putin, in his interview with Carlson, in a lesser-discussed portion of this historical essay, likewise disputed that notion by pointing to the fact that Novgorod, Moscow, and other cities in “Greater Russia” had as much claim as Kiev to be the foundation of the Russian state. And I believe that he is historically correct about that. Nonetheless, the terms “Micro Russia” (Malorossiya) and “Magna Russia” (Greater Russia, or Velikaya Rossiya or Velikaya Rus, as it is called in the national anthem) do rather support the Ukrainian claim for Kiev’s status as the primary core.]

The Great Gate of Kiev

But returning to Khmelnitsky: He writes* to the Tsar on June 4, 1654 from Chigirin [*footnote: ЦГАДА, ф. 124. Малороссийские дела, 1654, № 17, л. 38–41]: 

“From your generous funding everyone in Mala Rossiya was overjoyed…”

I bet they were!

In another letter, commenting on the privileges enjoyed by the Kiev-Pecherskaya Lavra (Monastery), the Hetman writes that “these privileges stemmed from the very old, honorable, blessed memory of the Princes and Russian Pans.” [using the Polish word “Pan”, which means nobleman].

The reporter ends his piece on that note, urging his readers to study these manuscripts, and then they can see for themselves, what is historically true, and what is simply a ridiculous fake concocted by the Ukrainian Nationalists.

[THE END]

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36 Responses to Ukraine War Day #722: Tucker Carlson And The Khmelnitsky File – Part III

  1. james says:

    very interesting.. thanks yalensis!

    Like

  2. TomA says:

    Speaking as an outsider, the status of Ukraine as either an historical component of Greater Russia or a fundamentally independent state (nation) is civil matter to be resolved by the affected parties, and should not be the object of interference by other nations/governments/special interests. Clearly the current conflict is not a debating exercise (half a million dead already) and persuasion based upon a history lesson is not going to bring back the dead. Also clearly, Russia was forced into this conflict against its will and Ukraine’s leadership was duped into fighting a war it cannot win. How many more average Ivans have to die before sanity returns?

    What has been the outcome of this meddling by the West? Russia is stronger than ever and Ukraine is a depopulated smoking ruin! A lot of good men have died unnecessarily, and that may be the greatest tragedy of all.

    Like

    • JC says:

      Prior to the middle of the 1800s the fate of Malorussiya was of no consequence to the west of that time. It was either part of Russia, or part of Poland, or part of Lithuania, or Part of Austro-Hungary–or further back an ever-shifting litany of owners.

      The closest the Anglo-Saxons came to caring about the region was when a band of disaffected Englishmen took up with the Byzantine Czar and were granted rights to seize lands on the Black Sea that had slipped from his grasp in prior centuries. Which they apparently did, though in the Kuban region.

      In any event, the West cares not at all about Ukrainians, and cares very much about cracking the edifice of united Russia into manageable chunks that can be properly corrupted and managed through “independent” central banks conveniently tied to international finance. In such a manner the industrial capabilities can be cut down to size, the population reduced in line with their proper ethnic status and 2030 sustainability goals, and the resources appropriately managed for the betterment of mankind. Well… of *some* mankind. Some animals being more equal than others, of course.

      With Russia brought into it’s proper place, the central heartland of Asia cannot unify against the periphery where the West resides, nor can it offer an alternative to the sea-lane control it exercises (er… supposedly).

      In any event, you have to realize that Rome didn’t fall in a day, the Ukraine operation is going rather well and can be used for decades to keep Europe in line and strangled by financial obligations they are too feeble to shrug off. Similarly, it focuses the Russian attention and their people any day now will mightily miss lacey panties and embrace them for their women, men, small children, dogs and animals of the other various genders.

      You just have to believe hard enough and stop listening to disinformation. Which of course is anything the West doesn’t say, today, about the subject.

      Like

    • yalensis says:

      Very well said, Tom.

      Like

  3. australianlady9 says:

    Yalensis, thanks for giving me an understanding of that magnificent Ilya Repin painting.

    Like

    • Bukko Boomeranger says:

      I too was so inspired by Yalensis’s replication of “The Reply of the Zaporizhian Cossacks” a couple of days ago that I had to dig up more information about the painting. Mainly because I wanted to know why that Cossorc (sic — the guy barely looks human) in the back was holding up a severed head that had a beard on it. So I find out it was some sort of hat. Disappointing. However, I’m glad I Oogled, because the painting is fascinating when it’s enlarged from the tiny one Y had. The individuality of the faces on those Cossacks! Who are horrifying, but Repin made each of them come alive in their khokholiness. The article below had a translation of what the hetman Sirko wrote to the Ottoman sultan, and it was a ripper! He should have been a blogger.

      https://www.arthistoryproject.com/artists/ilya-repin/reply-of-the-zaporozhian-cossacks/

      Like

      • yalensis says:

        Yup, these Cossacks missed their calling, they should have been internet trolls:

        “Zaporozhian Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan!

        O sultan, Turkish devil and damned devil’s kith and kin, secretary to Lucifer himself. What the devil kind of knight are you, that can’t slay a hedgehog with your naked arse? The devil excretes, and your army eats. You will not, you son of a bitch, make subjects of Christian sons; we’ve no fear of your army, by land and by sea we will battle with thee, fuck your mother.

        You Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fucker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, pig of Armenia, Podolian thief, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig’s snout, mare’s arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw your own mother!

        So the Zaporozhians declare, you lowlife. You won’t even be herding pigs for the Christians. Now we’ll conclude, for we don’t know the date and don’t own a calendar; the moon’s in the sky, the year with the Lord, the day’s the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our arse!

        —koshovyi otaman Ivan Sirko, with the whole Zaporozhian Host.”

        Like

    • yalensis says:

      You’re welcome, AustralianLady. I want the world to know what a brilliant painter Repin was! Just absolutely amazing. I have seen some of his works up close in person, at the Tretiakov. Not this one, however, because I believe it resides in a different gallery. If you ever go to Moscow, you should try to score a curated visit to these galleries. I think it is hard to get tickets, so need some advance planning… Also, security is very tight, because a couple of years ago a mentally-ill maniac attacked one of Repin’s paintings in the Tretiakov, namely his depiction of Ivan the Terrible after killing his son in a bout of rage. That painting, one of Repin’s best was, sadly, destroyed and cannot be restored.

      Like

  4. S Brennan says:

    Just as my father admonished me, you’ll know a “true” Nazi when you see how they behave under fire…

    “Azov battalion sent to Avdiivka refuses orders to engage Russians”

    …just like any “good” Nazi you’ll always find them safely in the rear.

    Until the Russian High Command figures out how to do a “big arrow” [as TRD says], they’ll be killing the wrong people. I respect Putin but, he had it all wrong in the Carlson interview, don’t ask DC/London’s-3LAs* to stop shipping weapons to Ukrainia…focus instead on killing the 10-20% of Ukrainia that are Nazis and…the war will end shortly thereafter. But, be careful when you do, hordes of fat rodents have been known to capsize ships when they scamper down the mooring lines together.

    *These are the same people who inspired Hitler with their eugenics and racial/class dichotomizing…as my father tried to explain, they’re immune to reason…unless they find themselves subjected to a well placed shot…then, they’ll suddenly understand.

    Like

    • yalensis says:

      To force these Nazis to obey him, Syrsky may have to do what Caligula did with his legions when they disobeyed a direct order: Decimate them, in other words. Except that, in Ukrainian mathematics, “decimate” means 100%.

      Like

  5. Beluga says:

    In all the commentary on Putin’s history lesson to Tucker Carlson, it was noticeable that the whole Stalinist era was omitted — the mass killings of that era inside Russia were not touched upon.

    On purpose by Putin, do you think? I mean, who today really gives a ratshit about 1652? Not me. Except in some academic sense of “nice to know”.

    We face a reality today between the SMO and the Gaza genocide that may well blow MY ass to bits when the nukes fly. And I’m supremely unhappy at the prospect.

    So finally, I heard an interview of Douglas Macgregor that addresses exactly that Stalin issue of the Carlson/Putin interview:

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/txSG9CDbYjcH/

    Now, yalensis, I find this interview highly important. Macgregor knows his history, and it isn’t from some modern day Russian PR point of view.

    Please view this Macgregor interview and comment — you’re a fairly decent historian yourself. Can you refute Macgregor’s analysis? Or agree with it. I really don’t much care what the Russians think because they’re essentially behind Putin, but the way Macgregor presents things seems much more logical to me, and explains a lot that heretofore was confusing to me.

    Like

    • yalensis says:

      Thanks for the link, Beluga. I will definitely watch the Macgregor interview after work today, and then let you know (maybe tomorrow) what I think.

      Meanwhile, I personally believe it was on purpose that Putin omitted any mention of Stalin in his historical essay. Putin attacks Lenin freely (sometimes) but tends to tiptoe around Stalin, because the latter is popular among the Russian people. (Lenin is still popular too, but not as popular as Stalin.) Instead, Putin tries to chip away slyly at Lenin/Stalin by bringing up this ancient history; he is dog-whistling to the Russian people something like, “We used to own all these lands outright, and we never would have lost them, if it weren’t for the blasted Bolsheviks, so all of this is their fault.” Meanwhile, he elides over a lot of other stuff, including the Mazepa incident.

      Which, by the way, I believe that I myself refuted Putin’s main propaganda point (“There is not and has never been the concept of a nation Ukraine”) with that single quote from the Pushkin poem, Poltava. Proving that certain elites among the Polish Cossacks had actually crafted a national idea called “Ukraine”, even as far back as the 1700’s.

      Instead of fighting against shadows, Putin should just fight against the current reality, which is this monstrous thing called NATO. Forget about Khmelnitsky. Forget about Mazepa. Just deal with NATO, conquer Ukraine, and get this thing over with. Period.

      Like

      • S Brennan says:

        “Instead of fighting shadows…fight the current reality…conquer Ukraine, and get this thing over with. Period”.

        Exactly so Y.

        And do so in a manner so conclusive that the twisted demons that caused this holocaust have nothing left to discus, so that they have no fig leaf left to wear, no tree to hide behind, no rock to climb under. Then, after all that is settled…then and only then is it time to apply the lessons history has to offer.

        Then and only then, bring to bare upon the lands of Ukrainia a FULLY PREPARED*, PRE-ASSEMBLED-PANEL* of historians, cultural experts, cartographers, linguists, geologists, experts in military defenses and civil engineers, [especially those familiar with water resources]. Then and only then, with a sure hand…IMPERIALLY apply fair and just borders to form a deep, robust foundation upon which a lasting peace can be built. Only in this way, those lives needlessly sacrificed to this bonfire of vanities will have some modicum of meaning. Yes, it is small consolation to the families of the victims but, it is all this earthly existence has to offer.

        If this horrible war is turned into a great peace then and only then will Russia be truly victorious. Putin has done much good for Russia..that’s nice but, to forge a lasting peace from the fire of an unsought war…that is a legacy by which a learned man may remembered through the ages.

        *This team should already be assembled and working diligently, [yes, late into Russia’s cold night], even as I type these words.

        Like

  6. Beluga says:

    The interview doesn’t really get to Ukraine until about the 15 minute mark. The interviewer is a complete nonentity with a mind as clear as an alga-filled pond. So Macgregor steps in and saves him a couple of times before he mindlessly rabbits on incorrectly with a logic I simply cannot “get”.

    Be aware that Macgregor knows full well this guy’s hairy-armpit audience, so uses the word “communist” where I’ve never heard him use it before with more educated interviewers.

    In other words, don’t get upset as you did with Garland Nixon for getting something technical wrong. Nixon and Ritter both call the Cape of Good Hope off Capetown, South Africa, the Horn of Africa. Jesus wept — the Horn od Africa is Somalia. Nixon still doesn’t get it that the main Saudi oil loading ports are on its Red Sea coast — ole Garland thinks they’re in the Persian Gulf. Nope.

    Sometimes one has to put up with certain errors to see if the overall gist of the thought is on the money, I get similarly triggered in an OCD manner on electrical utility matters, but it doesn’t matter much in the big picture. Macgregor is so obviously anti-neocon, anti the US government, I allow him his occasional rightish wing thoughts. Because overall, I think he’s a real human being and what an American should be.

    Look forward to your rhoughts.

    Like

    • yalensis says:

      The reason I got upset with Garland Nixon wasn’t because of a factual or technical error. It was because I believe he deliberately put it out there that Trotskyism = fascism, using a logical fallacy, namely:

      Statement #1: A key attribute of fascism is its commitment to war. [which I don’t even necessarily think is true, as I allowed for the theoretical existence of a peace-loving fascist state].
      Statement #2: Trotsky promoted “permanent revolution” which is a permanent state of war. [definitely not true, and a fallacious definition of permanent revolution]

      Ergo, Trotsky was a fascist. QED.
      Except not QED!

      If Garland were your typical American moron, I would forgive him for these fallacious assumptions and reasoning. But I know that he is very savvy politically and knows the history of communism/socialism pretty well. Therefore I can only conclude that he uttered these statements with a deliberate intent, namely to slime Trotsky and promote Stalin. Which is typical of what hard-core Stalinists do, they are masters of slander and deceit.

      As for the Cape of Good Hope: I think I always get that one right because I always remember the plot of Wagner’s opera “Der fliegende Holländer” and how the backstory starts with the Flying Dutchman’s treacherous journey around the Cape in the middle of a storm.

      Like

    • yalensis says:

      Sorry, Beluga, I sincerely tried to watch MacGregor’s interview, but I had to throw my computer out the window around 17 minutes in. Not just “orchestrated famine” in the Ukraine — you know that I don’t like Stalin very much, but he didn’t do that — and then MacGregor goes on with his hyperbole: Everybody who resisted Stalin’s “orchestrated famine” was not just deported, but “raped and deported”. Really? And how exactly does MacGregor “know” that these Ukrainian peasants were all raped? The same birdie who gave him the number of “millions and millions” killed by the Communists….

      Sorry, but this is just pure bullshit….

      Like

      • Beluga says:

        Well, thanks for attempting to watch. Appreciate the effort. Had you stayed longer, you would have at least seen where Macgregor’s ultimate sympathies lie. Tore a strip off the Poles as perennial Russia haters and praised the modernzation of civilian Russia these past 15 years He made the new big bad Ukie hit list published by Larry Johnson yesterday. A circle of pro-Russian Western “activists” who need to be offed by Ukie patriots.

        Perhaps one day, someone will explain two things to me: the undoubted Stalinist purges pre-war, that went far beyond the Army hierarchy, and the way, supposedly, returning Russian prisomers of war from Germany were treated as dross by Stalin. Apparently, they were supposed to have sacrificed themselves in battle, and never surrender. All those Army commissars, like Khruschev, were there like Azovs of today to ensure every Soviet soldier did his “duty”.

        Today I got treated to utter nonsense about the spiv Navalny, who croaked in detention. Kee-rist, you’d think the man was a saint, not the cheap huckstering small-time crook he actually was. The real opposition in the RF is the Communist Party so far as I know, not some crooked dolt a lot of Russians have never heard of. Good riddance. Of course, we got both barrels about Putin being an autocrat and tyrant who kills all opposition and that elections in the RF are neither fair nor free. Blah, blah, hysterical blah with Bill Browder, another US crook, chiming in on cue to add his two cents worth of crap.

        Avdievka is lost to Syrsky, the newly arrived Azovs fled. Denmark is looking to coop up the Russian Navy into the Arctic Ocean and the Baltic — the latest baiting of Russia by US proxy to persuade the RF to come out fighting. Biden had an Alzheimer’s fit, Trudeau lied his arse off — situation normal. Seems to me there will be further confrontation, and a lot of nastiness, because the US will get its ass reamed. Cruisin’ for a bruisin’.

        Like

        • yalensis says:

          I know that Macgregor’s sympathies lie with modern Russia, he likes Putin, hates Ukraine, etc. I have listened to his podcasts many times in the past. When he is talking about American history and politics, he seems to know what he is talking about. But the moment he switches to Russian history or the Soviet Union he reveals himself as a complete ignoramus: Just starts spouting Cold War cliches, exaggerations, and outright lies. Like all that nonsense about the “Ukrainian” famine (which was actually happening mostly in the part of Galicia which was not yet annexed to the Soviet Union).
          Don’t get me wrong, there WAS a famine. Partially caused by drought, but mostly caused by Western sanctions and economic policies. And this famine affected many regions of the Soviet Union, including parts of the Ukraine. But it was not “orchestrated by Stalin”. Like any famine in human history, it was partially man-made, in the sense that bureaucratic incompetence and lots of wrong decisions deepened the misery. But Macgregor, like all the Cold Warriors, goes way over the top, just spouting nonsense about the peasants being raped, etc. Where the heck is he getting that b.s.? From the likes of Timothy Snyder?

          As for Stalin’s purges of the military, yeah, that’s on Stalin. His paranoia started at the top (he feared a coup), and then the repressions just went on a rolling boil throughout the ranks. I wrote a lot of posts on this in the past, if you look at my archives and do a search on words like “Tukhachevsky” and “Uborevich”. One does not have to be a Stalin apologist in order to reject the B.S. lies of Cold War ideologues like Macgregor.

          As for Navalny, I just find it curious and all too convenient, that he died on the very same day as his wife/widow appeared before the EU leaders at the Munich conference, demanding more military aid for Ukraine and “vengeance” against the bloody tyrant Putin. My conspiracy theory: Navalny’s handlers at MI-6 decided to sacrifice him at this very crucial moment, as the Russians finish off Avdeevka. Navalny’s timely death serves 2 purposes: (1) Move the MSM headlines away from Avdeevka, and (2) a false flag to bring NATO onto the front lines directly in Ukraine.

          Or, he could have just died of natural causes, and it was all just a curious coincidence in timing. I mean, everybody dies eventually, no? and it’s not necessarily an omen, or connected to a conspiracy.

          Like

          • S Brennan says:

            I like/respect Macgregor as an American, as a soldier and as a citizen but…

            When it comes to FDR & FDRism [1932-1978] he is way-off-base but, you know what; that’s true of most good people, they have blind spots. I believe the gods create these flaws so that they can get a good laugh in at those beings whose vanity causes them to preen like peacocks…cocktail hour up on Mt. Olympus must be quite the giggle-gaggle…

            Fortunately for Macgregor…his modest demeanor keeps him in stead with the pantheon of Olympian Gods.

            Like

  7. Ben says:

    From what I can tell, and correct me if I’m way off base, but Putin cannot comprehend ethnogenesis. I mean, he has to, on some basic level, because he concedes that the Russia people started at some point. But he seems to only comprehend it as an ancient thing; it happened at some distant time and can’t happen again. He seems to have a huge blindspot for the idea that a Ukrainian national identity that doesn’t have medieval or ancient foundations, could ever be legitimate.

    Consider any alternate possible timeline where the coup in 2014 never happened. The Ukraine just continued within its existing borders, Crimea and all. Fast forward, say, 50 years. It is entirely possible at that future date a majority of people within Ukraine would identify as citizens of ethnicity and nation-state based in Kiev, rather than Russians (to get to this point Kiev would have to have been led for quite a well be even handed folks, of course not at all guaranteed. Perhaps a United States of Ukraine federal system would have been made at some point). In this hypothetical, the future version of Putin would likely remain completely uncomprehending of this new Ukrainian national identity, and would still be blowing wind about medieval history, meanwhile modern history would have passed them by.

    Another thing about Putin, and again correct me if I’m wrong, is that he at least rhetorically, and maybe in actual substance, puts a lot of stock in traditional culturalism. He makes a big deal about how Russia is a federation of many ethnicities, that it’s a Untied States of Russia (that there’s a certain type of reactionary in the Western that thinks Putin is their based daddy figure who will protect the white race, or whatever, is deeply ironic). He goes around Russia and encourages various groups to continue on being loyal to their traditions.

    (of course, his tolerance of regional identity in Russia has its limits. Try to leave and he’ll flatten your villages and install a permanent strongman thug to keep you in the club)

    My impression is that he’s much more generous to non-Russians in Russia than he is to immediately neighboring Slavs, whom we views dimly as just local variant Russians. Belarus gets a pass because they’ve ‘correctly’ accepted their position as White Russians. While Ukrainians insist they’re Ukrainians, and not Kievan Rus. They’re Russians in denial, to Putin. At some point this seems like petty hairsplitting.

    Like

    • S Brennan says:

      “…correct me if I’m way off base”

      Yeah…well, if pigs could fly…

      Briefly, Putin wouldn’t have given a shit about the artifice that is the soon to be reapportioned lands of the multicultural region formally known to as “Ukrainia” were it not for the latter-day-Nazis-of-Galicia penchant for kristallnachts, late night torchlight parades and all the other various celebrations of the Galician’s Nazi past alongside….the ten year struggle to murder ethnic/cultural Russians in a “final solution”. A project financed by Heinrich’s ideological step-children in DC/London.

      So yeah, if you, [pretending for a moment that your ignorance isn’t well studied], had a modicum of recent history under you belt, you’d have known the answers to all of your questions.

      Like

      • Ben says:

        I’m well aware that Putin’s attitude amounts to ‘I don’t think you’re a real country, but we’d humor you so long as you were friendly or neutral’. My point is about his underlying attitude that Ukraine can never be legitimately independent of Russia. Historical arguments completely miss the point that all nationalities and ethnicities are ultimately fictitious. None of them have existed since time immemorial, which means any recently invented one can have as much (or as little) legitimacy as any other.

        Like

        • S Brennan says:

          Is Mexico or Canada “truly independent”? Well, we could test the “theory” by having Mexico/Canada station Russian theater ballistic missiles near Mexico and/or Canada’s border with the USA. I believe a similar test occurred 90 miles south of Miami back in the early 1960’s…

          Back then world powers seem to understand that what happens on/next to their border was their business…currently, DC/3LA/Media/Pundits seem to have a very convenient form of amnesia.

          Like

          • yalensis says:

            There is probably some technical difference between being “independent” and being “sovereign”. Not sure what the difference is, and then there are things called “vassal states”.

            Like

          • Ben says:

            I’m talking about culturally and ethnically.

            Like

            • S Brennan says:

              Galicians and their veneration of the cultural construct of Nazism? Really?

              Like

              • yalensis says:

                It didn’t start with Bandera. There was an earlier movement of Ukrainian “national identity”, the poet Lesya Ukrainka can be considered an exemplar of that trend. These people were not necessarily anti-Russian, and Lesya herself was a socialist and a humanist. Their shtick was attempting to build a national/ethnic identity based on language, folklore, traditional and cultural practices, etc. Because they were usually opposed to the Tsar and considered him to be an oppressive tyrant, the Bolsheviks found common ground with this type of Ukrainian. Like everything good in the world, this benign version of ethnicism was hijacked and corrupted by the West. Who converted it into fascism, because that’s what they do.

                Like

    • yalensis says:

      Hi, Ben,
      I think you are basically right about ethnogenesis, in the sense that a “national” or “ethnic” identity can emerge at any time in history. I myself “refuted” Putin with the quote from Pushkin’s Poltava, proving that a certain group of Cossacks, around the time of Mazepa and Peter the Great, were already calling their area “Ukraine” and positing a national identity, supposedly independent from both Russian Tsar and Polish King. (Which, by the way, was a doomed project from the start.)

      I recall reading about Joan of Arc and how, at that time in European history, there was not really a sense of “French” identity, but Joan herself helped to inculcate among a certain group of Frenchies who followed her. So, yes, a national identity can arise during a period of turmoil.

      Have to disagree about the Chechen “thug”, though. Keeping Chechnya as part of Russia was probably the best thing that Putin ever did. What was the alternative? To sit back and watch as NATO-led jihadi headchoppers busted Russia up into pieces and brought American troops right into the oil-rich Caucasus?

      You’re right, though, that Putin nurtures the ethnic minorities that dwell in Greater Russia. He has to. It’s his job to keep everybody together. As for other national identities, say, Ukrainians, that’s not his job. In the end it all comes down to geopolitics and whose ox is being gored at any particular time!

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      • Ben says:

        As recently as Napoleon, different parts of his army from different parts of ‘France’ couldn’t easily communicate with each other, their dialects were so different. ‘Subject of the king’ is not the same as ‘citizens of a nation’. For centuries the monarch there was ‘King of France’. The change to ‘King of the French’ was an innovation; because ‘the French’ didn’t really exist before the Revolutionary period. The same thing happened in Germany and Italy (‘we have created Italy. Now we must create Italians.’). And it happens everywhere, not just Europe. Japan (it worked) and India (it’s not going well because the guys in charge are Hindu fascists…) are a couple examples. China and its ‘5,000 years of civilization’ is a blatant example of national mythmaking.

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        • yalensis says:

          Thanks for reminding me about Germany and Italy. It was only in the 1800’s that they became “nations” too.
          I reckon the making of nations (and empires) is a way of bringing larger and larger numbers of human beings together as one self-identified group. Some of us, in our idealistic youth, once hoped that the entire world would become one giant nation, the Nation of the World. [or what do they call it in Star Trek, the United Federation of Planets, or something like that…]

          haha!

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          • Ben says:

            The Mass Effect franchise has national governments still existing on Earth, but for interstellar purposes all of humanity operates under the auspices of the Alliance. Sadly the lore never gets very deep into how this actually operates in practice, or where points of friction might exist.

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